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Talk:Summoning: Impure World Reincarnation
The Narutopedia reserves the right to remove any question that could be answered by reading the article. Bleeding Can a Edo bleed? Otherwise how can they summon creatures? (talk) 12:50, July 20, 2012 (UTC) :Yes they can. Itachi's eyes still bled after all and the Second Mizukage was able to summon his clam.--Cerez365™ (talk) 13:05, July 20, 2012 (UTC) It appears they bleed only from self-inflicted injuries, in a sense like usage of a technique that harms their (or better say the host's) body etc.--Elveonora (talk) 14:56, July 20, 2012 (UTC) It's the same as the way they are able to remove their own clothing and such, but if somebody else does they just regenerate. Probably also related to the way Tobi was able to insert Sharingan and chakra receivers into the Six Paths without them regenerating.--BeyondRed (talk) 20:19, July 20, 2012 (UTC) What about when Kabuto placed a mind control tag into Torune blood came from his mouth and made a sound of pain there was blood but it was self inflicted by Torune and I thought people brought back to life by edo tensei couldn't feel pain? and when people brought back to life by edo tensei are injured you don't see the sacrafice underneath so when kabuto implants the tag in there head wouldn't it fall out because there is no brain?? -- (talk) 21:48, August 31, 2012 (UTC) :Torune was drooling not bleeding and that looked like Fū making the "sound of pain". As for the rest of your question, this isn't a forum.--Cerez365™ (talk) 10:42, September 1, 2012 (UTC) So he was drooling blood?? -- (talk) 17:09, September 5, 2012 (UTC) :People tend to drool saliva. had it been blood, the colour would have been darker.--Cerez365™ (talk) 10:45, September 6, 2012 (UTC) Itachi's Eyes Itachi got blind after fighting sasuke from both his sharingan,and was resurrected with both of them normal Nagato had his legs injured, and came back with them still injured any explanation ?-- (talk) 00:37, August 17, 2012 (UTC) :Itachi's eyes were pretty bad, but nothing indicates he went fully blind before death. If how his eye looked after he used Izanami is an indication at least. Omnibender - Talk - 02:30, August 17, 2012 (UTC) ::Nagato on the other hand could have simply "forgot" how to use his legs due to not using them for so long. It's akin to someone getting in an accident and needing rehabilitation to learn to reuse to limb, only Nagato had none of that.--Cerez365™ (talk) 10:06, August 17, 2012 (UTC) Nagato's legs were long healed, the problem was with his brain/nerve endings--Elveonora (talk) 17:01, August 17, 2012 (UTC) About the use of the word "reincarnation". While that may be the title of the name in english, the technique does not actually reincarnate anyone. It resurrects them. The two words are very different. As such, the words "reincarnation" and "reincarnate", etc., should be replaced with the appropriate variants of "resurrection". (talk) 03:40, September 1, 2012 (UTC) :That's what the term "tensei" means, and as such, it's the term to be used through the wiki. Omnibender - Talk - 04:16, September 1, 2012 (UTC) People are returned to "life" using other people's bodies as vessels. It is incorrect to say there's any type of resurrection here unless you're using layman's terms in which case everything is a resurrection.--Cerez365™ (talk) 09:54, September 1, 2012 (UTC) Resurrected in the exact state they died in? If edo tensei resurrects the dead in the exact state they died in wouldn't that mean for example Itachi would be resurrected in the state when he fought sasuke near blind and in bad physical condition? or sasori he was resurrected as a human didn't he die a puppet? unless all resurrected by kabuto are special like madara, they were resurrected when they were at there best. -- (talk) 22:17, October 12, 2012 (UTC) :For all we know, Itachi was near blind when he was brought back. And he wasn't in a bad physical condition, he was sick. A puppet can die, Sasori was brought back as a human because he was a human. Only Madra was a special case. Omnibender - Talk - 22:31, October 12, 2012 (UTC) Well when he was "near blind" his sharingan or mangekyō had no tomoe seal just a grey eye like sasukes after his battle with danzo and wouldn't he be resurrected near blind? because he died near blind. What I mean is maybe kabuto can resurrect them at any point in their life like he could have resurrected itachi in the state before his battle with sasuke. -- (talk) 22:54, October 12, 2012 (UTC) It resurrects them in a state from the time the DNA has been collected, except in Madara's case, works... doesn't it?--Elveonora (talk) 23:18, October 12, 2012 (UTC) Kabuto must have gathered itachi's DNA after sasuke killed him... so why wasn't he resurrected near blind with grey eyes and no tomeo on his sharingan or mangekyō sharingan? see where I'm coming from? -- (talk) 23:23, October 12, 2012 (UTC) Who told you that? He could have had a bunch of his hair from a hairbrush.--Elveonora (talk) 23:29, October 12, 2012 (UTC) I'm pretty sure hair doesn't count.. are you listening to what you're saying? that wouldn't be it. I can't imagine kabuto getting Itachi's DNA while Itachi was alive... who told you It resurrects them in a state from the time the DNA has been collected? if so is it 100% true? -- (talk) 23:33, October 12, 2012 (UTC) It says "Kabuto can also modify his summoned fighters, as he did with Madara Uchiha. While the technique usually reincarnates the deceased at the exact state they were in at the time of their deaths" not they are resurrected in the state when there DNA is collected.. to support this Kabuto says he graverobs to get the DNA he can't resurrect alive people.. so for example he got pakura's DNA while she was alive and killed her and resurrected her? -- (talk) 23:40, October 12, 2012 (UTC) Any DNA is sufficient, doesn't have to be only corpses/remains as he used blood and didn't specify what kind. I don't see why a genetic source from young Hiruzen should revive him as an old man. It's logical and explains basically what this topic discuss. No one says that, of course a living person can't be resurrected. The user can prepare the "zombie body" anytime though, the example being Minato. His soul wasn't available, but a host turned into "Minato" has been prepared.--Elveonora (talk) 23:46, October 12, 2012 (UTC) So how did Itachi get resurrected to a point when his sharingan weren't near blind when he died? I thought it resurrects them in the state of their death. and I understand what you mean with the hiruzen but young hiruzen's DNA wouldn't revive Hiruzen when he was young. -- (talk) 23:51, October 12, 2012 (UTC) Elveonora, no one ever said that the person is brought back according to how they were at the time the DNA was collected. And anon, hair does have DNA, but only the root of the hair if I'm not mistaken. Remember that DNA isn't the only necessary thing, the soul of the person is brought back as well. That is what probably accounts for them coming back as they were prior to death. I still don't quite see the point of this topic. Madara is the only exception of this, and that is accounted for in the article. Omnibender - Talk - 23:53, October 12, 2012 (UTC) Fair enough.. I guess :P -- (talk) 00:50, October 13, 2012 (UTC) I mean how was Itachi resurrected with non-near blind sharingan when he died with near blind sharingan because of his battle with sasuke? I thought edo tensei resurrects the dead in the state in which they died that means his sharingan. -- (talk) 23:58, October 12, 2012 (UTC) @Omni@others, can you provide a source for Edo Tensei reviving people prior to death? Unless I'm mistaken, it's just as big assumption/conclusion as the statement of mine (which is more logical imo)--Elveonora (talk) 00:03, October 13, 2012 (UTC) I'm sure Kabuto mentions it... -- (talk) 00:04, October 13, 2012 (UTC) "Then dust and ash encase the sacrifice's body, giving them the same appearance that the reincarnated had at the time of their death. The process is apparently somewhat painful as seen when Fū was used to reincarnate Torune." If they are resurrected with the same appearance they had at their death would they be resurrected in the state of their death? -- (talk) 00:09, October 13, 2012 (UTC) # no one provided a source yet, since "I'm sure Kabuto mentions it" isn't enough # please, instead of double posting, just edit your previous post # stop asking more question like if this was a forum before we conclude if what's written in the article is false or correct--Elveonora (talk) 00:16, October 13, 2012 (UTC) I'm not asking more questions... I'm asking the first, and only question which you haven't answered yet. Have you got any evidence that "It resurrects them in a state from the time the DNA has been collected?" -- (talk) 00:20, October 13, 2012 (UTC) That's not your original question, there is no source for date of acquisition of DNA playing any role. What is known about the technique is in the article, and further discussion is pointless. Omnibender - Talk - 00:43, October 13, 2012 (UTC) Again, it was never stated to revive people/turn victims into other people as they were at the time of their death, either there's a reference to that or isn't, currently it's the latter. It should be removed, for it only to say: "Then dust and ash encase the sacrifice's body, giving them the same appearance that the reincarnated had" as the rest is a conclusion based on an assumption due to a lack of information, unless you can put me wrong and provide a quote from a chapter/databook page. What I have stated above is a possibility how it may really work, and since it appears we don't know, either remove that or put up my version that makes more sense. Basically in short (not to confuse you) what is being discussed is: * How Edo Itachi not blind * I say simply because Kabuto had his genetic material before the Sasuke fight * There currently isn't a redirect for the "prior to death" part --Elveonora (talk) 04:16, October 13, 2012 (UTC) How they were at death probably comes from Nagato (who came back with the weakened look he had from using Samsara of Heavenly Reincarnation) and Torune (who was brought back in the exact same cloths he had just moments before). Omnibender - Talk - 04:44, October 13, 2012 (UTC) I doubt it's as cut and dry as the person being reincarnated as how they physically were in their lifetime/before their death. Someone mentioned a while back that it is probably how the person's soul perceived itself at the time of death, which is why Sasori didn't get reincarnated as his core of living flesh and why Nagato still couldn't walk properly though the legs of whomever's body he occupied were functional. I don't know where you got the information that Itachi wasn't "blind" since I don't remember him being blind at his time of death, just severely deteriorated vision. There are several possibilities that could explain that such as the host body wasn't blind (reincarnation vs. resurrection again), but I quite like the "you're as whole and young as your soul thinks you are" angle. The point is, we'll never be 100% on this until Kishimoto explains, so don't sweat the small stuff.--Cerez365™ (talk) 11:53, October 13, 2012 (UTC) * Kabuto got Nagato's DNA after he revived the villagers? * That's self-explanatory --Elveonora (talk) 16:58, October 13, 2012 (UTC) :So you're content to believe that people are reincarnated in the state their DNA which Kabuto gathers is in? There's a few flaws to that though: scientifically, DNA doesn't change like that, why aren't people like the Kage whose DNA obviously came from grave robbing not old and decrepit in appearance? Why didn't Sasori look older? From what Kabuto said, he brought Madara back beyond his prime. Though I don't know what that means exactly, but if he did that to everyone, what was the point in mentioning this? I also don't get the whole Kabuto got Itachi's DNA from a hairbrush but like I said we can only speculate on this matter until we're told otherwise.--Cerez365™ (talk) 17:09, October 13, 2012 (UTC) * I don't know, Omni knows biology, I think... maybe he can tell. * They died as old as they had forms in which were revived... * Sasori looked normal to me * No one says he did that to everyone, also we know what "beyond his prime" means exactly. * That was an example --Elveonora (talk) 17:14, October 13, 2012 (UTC) It could be they're resurrected at their best (prime). and Madara is special because he had was resurrected with his rinnegan even though at one point he gave it to someone (Nagato). And he had his memories, knowledge from his old self in his young body. -- (talk) 17:25, October 13, 2012 (UTC) No, Chiyo was revived as an old hag, the only one in his prime and beyond is Madara. This pretty much confirms that they are revived in a state from the point the DNA gets collected. The way I see it, Kabuto simply used blood from younger Madara (the Hashirama's sword he got pierced with for example could serve as a source) and added Hashirama's genes into the mix, reviving young Madara with already the latter's powers as his own.--Elveonora (talk) 17:46, October 13, 2012 (UTC) Just because two things correlate (vary together), it doesn't mean they're actually related. There's a scientific paper which mocks this belief, showing that stork nests and births were positively correlated somewhere in Germany sometime last century. Nothing in the manga confirms, or even suggests that time of acquisition of DNA defines how they're brought back. Omnibender - Talk - 17:59, October 13, 2012 (UTC) I don't think you understood me Elveonora: * DNA does not change based on what happens to you unless it's a genetic disease- which is very rare. So if you lose a limb for example your DNA does not reflect that. * Still make no sense to me. See previous point. * Sasori should have been revived as a much older man, instead he looked in his 20's or so (the last time Chiyo saw him). That's what I mean by perception of soul. * I thought I made that clear. * Still a faulty example. Kabuto's mentioned that he takes the DNA from corpses or more than likely their last battlefields. (cite Jiraiya) The point still remains that only Kishimoto can answer this, if he chooses to or not. Some things just have to be accepted as continuity. But as far as I can tell, people are reincarnated in the state that they were before they died. Accept it either as part of the plot or the fact that in Nagato or Itachi's case (assuming the latter was "blind") that their souls were reincarnated into fully functioning corpses, hence defects of their previous body would have no bearing on those bodies.--Cerez365™ (talk) 18:01, October 13, 2012 (UTC) @Omni, that didn't answer my question though. Does DNA of a living being outside of it's body age in a sense, that if it was used to "clone" the said subject 5 decades later, would it result in x + 50 years old individual or just x ? @Cerez: * Never said it does * You see point above, it doesn't matter if Sasori's DNA got collected before he turned himself into a doll, or from his doll physical part. There's no way he could age as a piece of wood, the preserved part was likely just one of his organs or just piece of flash, not his brain, so he couldn't appear older when revived by Edo Tensei * Just to let you know, I don't see the Itachi case as a problem at all, you think I don't get what I do and you don't get what I mean you don't get. Itachi's "blindness" was self-inflicted, if I blind myself by hitting my eye with a pen, it isn't reflected in my DNA whatsoever since it's not genetic--Elveonora (talk) 18:32, October 13, 2012 (UTC) No, it doesn't age. DNA is damaged and repaired at every moment, both by environmental elements and by the very nature of the duplication process. If it's out of a body and properly stored, it can be maintained in a stable form for a long while, though I'm not sure how long. DNA changes very little during life, it accumulates said damage. Considering Kabuto took it from graves, it's obvious it doesn't need to be in top shape. Omnibender - Talk - 19:11, October 13, 2012 (UTC) So doesn't that just prove my point?--Elveonora (talk) 19:50, October 13, 2012 (UTC) No. If decay to the DNA did anything to the reincarnated, grave-robbing would give very poor soldiers, because their DNA would have had more time to decay and be damaged. Omnibender - Talk - 20:02, October 13, 2012 (UTC) Just throwing it in there, DNA does change over the course of your life, otherwise you wouldn't stop growing, or even age ( Wikipedia Page for Epigenetics:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetic)...but considering this manga was not written by a biologist i suggest leaving the science at usual level --ThatUser (talk) 02:35, October 14, 2012 (UTC) Epigenetics is about how your genes are expressed. Basically, it regulates which genes are "on" (being transcribed into mRNA and subsequently translated into proteins) and which genes are "off" (having their expression suppressed by other factors). That's the reason why we have different cell types, despite all of them having the genes for all proteins in our body. A muscle cell and a liver cell both have the genes which are expressed in brain cell, but those are off, so they don't have brain cell characteristics, because they don't express the same set of proteins. The nucleotide sequence in all of them is the same. Omnibender - Talk - 03:48, October 14, 2012 (UTC) Obito's Six Paths of Pain Dōjutsu Although the six shinobi are still deceased, the fact is that they were each transplanted a Sharingan and Rinnegan eye, the same as characters like Kakashi. I think we should add to their infoboxes that they have the said eyes. Steveo920, October 20, 21:51 If they are the Six Paths of Pain and if they face those chakra recivers in their chest, then that means Obito implated a chakra receiver into himself (note that their sharingan and rinnegan are in the same eye sockets as Tobi's).--Droidkaju (talk) 02:01, October 21, 2012 (UTC) * The eyes aren't transplants, just "reflections" * I'm pretty sure it was even hinted upon that Tobi has a rod as well in his body--Elveonora (talk) 02:14, October 21, 2012 (UTC) More likely than no, the Sharingan weren't reflections but the Rinnegan definitely were. It is also possible that Tobi didn't have a chakra receiver lodged in his body because of the fact that the jinchuriki were reincarnated and not corpses. He could simply have been using the Outer Path techniques to control them.--Cerez365™ (talk) 14:52, October 21, 2012 (UTC) @Cerez, Outer Path's Six Paths of Pain/Rikudou no Jutsu is used with a Chakra Receiver, thus he has to have one in his body in order to "transmit" as well--Elveonora (talk) 19:38, October 21, 2012 (UTC) How in the...? I feel I have the right to ask this. I understand the person's body isn't needed for the reincarnation, the only requirement being the deceased person's soul and a living sacrifice as a vessel, right? Okay, so where in the hell does Kabuto keep finding these people's souls? O.o And don't tell me that every single reincarnation needs a DNA sample. IIRC, some of the reincarnated shinobi's bodies were destroyed in real life(therefore no DNA sample), and Kabuto claimed that while he couldn't reincarnate Jiraiya because he had sunken too deep into the water when he died, if he could get ahold of the Six Paths of Pain's chakra recievers he should be able to reincarnate him; despite the chakra recievers being attached to his dead body! It was such an absurd statement on his part, I'm beginning to become morbidly confused on just how this jutsu works. -- (talk) 17:08, October 26, 2012 (UTC) He said he could get the DNA off of the Path's weapons. If you recall, the Animal Path he sent back to Konoha pierced Jiraiya's shoulder and basically every blow that wasn't the final impalement could render DNA samples to recreate Jiraiya. As for bodies that were destroyed who is to say Kabuto didn't get the DNA before this time? He needs some piece of the Target's DNA in order to recreate their body. Having said that, about the Souls, it's not literally retrieving their Soul, it simply means that the person has to be dead and gone, not alive or sealed in order for the Soul to be called back to the body. He doesn't have to lay hands on a soul (How the hell would you even do that) Just be sure that the one he wants to revive is dead and that their Soul wasn't sealed before then. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 17:37, October 26, 2012 (UTC) Thanks. I think I understand better now. -- (talk) 17:43, October 26, 2012 (UTC) Everything you need to know is present in the article, reading comprehension and thinking are your best bet before asking. But to save you the effort, it's as follows: * a living sacrifice has to be prepared * any DNA samples that belong to the people a summoner wishes to bring back * also their souls must reside in "the other world" if you will # the summoner makes a sealing formula around the "about-to-be-sacrificed-person" # places the "to-be-revived-person's" genetic material on the seal # dust encases the victim, turning his/her body into an Edo zombie # Souls descend from heavens into the zombies, replacing the originally living Simply, a life for a life trade.--Elveonora (talk) 21:47, October 26, 2012 (UTC) Transplant The article should mention the fact that the summoned shinobi retains the transplantations he has underwent in his life. Nagato and Hanzô are clear examples of that. --Bad77Wolf (talk) 01:43, October 29, 2012 (UTC) :Just to note, while there is no need to not say that transplants remain after resurrection, the article does clearly state that the revived are brought back in the state they were in at their death. So logically speaking, if they had a transplant at the time of death, they would keep it.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 02:18, October 29, 2012 (UTC) ::Maybe but I think that deserves a proper, more explicit statement, considering the importance of transplantations in the Narutoverse. --Bad77Wolf (talk) 18:12, October 29, 2012 (UTC) A page of the talismans? I don't know why there isn't. Some of the info on them can be transferred to a new page. --OmegaRasengan (talk) 00:16, November 25, 2012 (UTC) Appearing Asleep The article currently, and has for quite a while, claimed that those revived by this technique appear "asleep" until a talisman has been inserted, but that isn't really the case. When Torune was revived he was awake and could even move on his own, and the two Hokage revived by Orochimaru could speak and, at the very least, walk when they were summoned. The only time the "asleep" statement is true is in regard to Kabuto's revived Akatsuki members, but that was likely because he had inserted talismans to bind their personalities when they were first reincarnated, just like Torune. Not sure how to better phrase this in the article, but it seems rather incorrect to leave it as is.--BeyondRed (talk) 08:16, January 12, 2013 (UTC) :The article says when summoned. It is not with reference to what happens to them after the ritual had just been completed. Changed the word either way.--Cerez365™ (talk) 08:30, January 12, 2013 (UTC) Jinchūriki Hello, there's something I'm a bit unsure about. Madara says that a reincarnated body cannot become a jinchūriki, right? Then how did Obito manage to reseal the tailed beasts in his six reincarnated jinchūriki?-- (talk) 11:01, January 29, 2013 (UTC) :Perhaps it was only for Ten-Tails.~ UltimateSupreme 11:22, January 29, 2013 (UTC) :I'll say what I think about it. The tailed beasts that Tobi controlled in the fight against Naruto & Killer B were still sealed inside the Demonic Statue: Tobi just used the chakra receivers in the jinchūriki bodies to link the tailed beasts' power to each body. As such, each Path had access to its tailed beast's power, but the latter wasn't actually sealed inside the former, just linked by the rod.--JOA20 (talk) 12:32, January 29, 2013 (UTC) ::An explanation of this is in the other relevant articles. It is not here because it's not related to the technique.--Cerez365™ (talk) 15:20, January 29, 2013 (UTC) is the "edo" kanji the same kanji used to form tokyo's previous name?? --Caseather (talk) 03:10, February 1, 2013 (UTC) Release Shouldn't there be a Page for the Release Counterpart of this Technique? --Kieronrob (talk) 17:05, February 3, 2013 (UTC) :I see the logic behind it, but I would hold that one off for now. We had a scroll with the name on it for Dead Demon Consuming Seal. We didn't have that for this one. Omnibender - Talk - 17:35, February 3, 2013 (UTC) Since we have xxx unnamed techniques, I don't see why this one should be an exception--Elveonora (talk) 19:21, February 3, 2013 (UTC) Bump, nothing then? It's obviously it's own technique, Tobirama doesn't seem to know about it--Elveonora (talk) 17:11, February 20, 2013 (UTC) How would Tobirama not know about it? He created the technique, Oro and Kabuto only made it better/stronger. Like I said, I'm not completely averse to the idea, but I think we should have more stuff behind it before making the page. Omnibender - Talk - 23:50, February 20, 2013 (UTC) The release part appears to be a different technique, it doesn't appears Tobirama knows about it, if he knew, he would have released himself, nope?--Elveonora (talk) 01:45, February 21, 2013 (UTC) : Maybe he didn't have the time to.--Yomiko-chan (talk) 01:53, February 21, 2013 (UTC) Madara had time with his soul being sucked away and attacking 5 Kage ._.--Elveonora (talk) 17:47, February 21, 2013 (UTC) :>.< True.-- (talk) 17:51, February 21, 2013 (UTC) ::He did not. What Kabuto was forced to do was release the technique. What Madara did, was once he was completely unimpeded, he seized the control of the technique over himself. He's still bound to the physical world by the IWR, just by his own will rather than a third party's. If Madara wanted, in theory, he would need to perform the same hands seals Itachi had Kabuto perform to be released. Omnibender - Talk - 01:05, February 22, 2013 (UTC) Yeah, and that's why his "self-control no jutsu" is a separate technique and should have an article imo, he even did a handseal if I remember well--Elveonora (talk) 01:41, February 22, 2013 (UTC) :They simply said he hijacked the technique. Still not seeing it as a separate technique. Madara could do that because he has knowledge on IWR itself. Omnibender - Talk - 02:42, February 22, 2013 (UTC) Control without talisman Should be added in the paragraph about the control of the Edo Tensei, that it's possible exercise a form of it also without talismans inside the reincarnated ones? In the last chapter Orochimaru say that his bind with the Kage is reinforced by the Hashirama cells in his body, so thid should mean implicitly that a basic control on the summoned ones is always been present in the user of the jutsu also without particular tools. Or I'm misunderstanding something?--JK88 (talk) 16:28, February 15, 2013 (UTC) : I think you are right...~ UltimateSupreme 16:31, February 15, 2013 (UTC) The talismans never directly controlled them, just their personality and control over movements by setting them to automatic mode--Elveonora (talk) 16:36, February 15, 2013 (UTC) Sound Four Since the Sound Four will be revived in the next filler episodes, instead of having each member in a slot, why not just insert the team? --Questionaredude (talk) 15:55, February 28, 2013 (UTC) Sound Five you mean, Kimimaro is already there ;D--Elveonora (talk) 15:56, February 28, 2013 (UTC)